Scott Grove - BEWARE of Buying his Lap Steel Guitar lessons

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Dec 2016 10:04 am

Brooks Montgomery wrote:There are a lot of different "schools" in terms of styles and disciplines in teaching music. In searching around on this site I realized that Scott Grove is an ardent follower of the Tyler Baum discipline of teaching and honed technique.

https://youtu.be/KFDbZh25eZE

O. M. G.

I am watching this guy, and I am dumbfounded. He may very well be a great player doing total put-on... it's that unbelievable.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 30 Dec 2016 10:04 am

Kook-burger! I didn't realize these people were out there teaching? I also didn't realize melatonin overdose could make you high?

Jim Smerk · Post by **Jim Smerk** » 30 Dec 2016 10:25 am

I will also admit to buying all his videos when he had one of those $10 sales a few years back........96gb download of 60+ videos that are 80% talking...

I grabbed a few good licks from his country guitar vids, but overall it was a waste of $9 for sure....

Now, before I get flamed, I am also a buyer of Doug's 50 song collection for C6 and a member of the forum.....I hope that even things up....

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 11:08 am

Thanks, Jim!

Tyler Baum's videos are funny and interesting, in a weird way. Yes, he has to be the biggest put-on since Tiny Tim! At least he's not trying to sell us bad instruction. That's the difference between him and that fraud, Scott Grove.

David M Brown · Post by **David M Brown** » 30 Dec 2016 11:10 am

Nathan Laudenbach wrote: Seriously though, who gives a shit? I for one enjoy the fact that steel guitar is relatively unknown and kind of a lost art.

Amen.

But - I'd like to see more dedicated youngsters learning the instrument.

And I'm still dealing with learning the "lost art"!

David M Brown · Post by **David M Brown** » 30 Dec 2016 11:15 am

OK, this forum does not have a group "quote" button

But a lot you have commented on his skills as a salesman.

You do not have to be a player to make a successful music teaching business.

If I recall the guys that started Oahu publishing were not players.

Jim Smerk · Post by **Jim Smerk** » 30 Dec 2016 11:16 am

No prob Doug! That 16 Song book will be mine in the near future for sure.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Dec 2016 12:02 pm

In terms of the content of Scott Grove's vids, I doubt I disagree significantly with any of the comments here. Based on what I saw on youtube some time back, I don't believe I would find any value in his vids, I generally disagree with his overall attitude, and that's all I can say about that.

But I do take exception with the idea of allowing people to run him off youtube because they don't like him, his point of view, or don't find value in his stuff, for this simple reason: his free youtube videos gave you a pretty good idea what you were gonna get if you bought something. Hiding the 'freebies' actually deprives prospective purchasers of any serious way to gauge what they're gonna get before they commit to buying it.

I believe in a free marketplace of ideas. Let the merits or demerits rule what sells versus what doesn't. Unless someone is doing something illegal like pirating copyrighted material, committing slander/libel, or otherwise violating what most of us agree is settled law, I think anything beyond stating opinions about the content, as most of us have over a period of time with this guy, should be out of bounds. I don't know this guy myself, don't know anybody who does know him, and have no idea of his motivations beyond making money, which seems pretty clear. But I have seen plenty of guitar teachers and players with what appears to be his basic world-view. It sure as hell ain't my world-view, but I think they're entitled to think what they want to think.

My take - if "people out there in radioland" can freely view representative samples of his videos and decide they want to buy some, I don't see why we should get in an uproar about it. I think it's fine to express opinions about this, but I don't agree with a movement to censor anybody simply because they don't like their content and think it is valueless or even misleading about, let's say, what types of techniques "work" to accomplish a particular goal like playing guitar, steel, or whatever.

I know many of you will disagree with me about this. So be it, but I really think it's better to just let fools talk openly and show their true colors, rather than keep it underground.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 1:10 pm

Some would see Youtube's action as censorship, others might see it as consumer protection. Youtube does ban certain types of ads in their system based on consumer protection. For example, they recently banned "payday loan" companies from advertising on the site. Scott Grove himself says that Youtube deleted most of his teaser videos because of the excessive negative comments. It's possible that Youtube is trying to weed out the trolls like Grove and protect the viewers. Evidently when a video advertising a product has a large percentage of negative comments or complaints they take a closer look at it. So in a way it's censorship, but it's also a consumer protection issue IMO.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Dec 2016 1:43 pm

Some would see Youtube's action as censorship, others might see it as consumer protection. Youtube does ban certain types of ads in their system based on consumer protection. For example, they recently banned "payday loan" companies from advertising on the site. Scott Grove himself says that Youtube deleted most of his teaser videos because of the excessive negative comments. ...

.
Protection of whom from what? Protecting people from seeing free "lessons" that give an idea what someone will teach in paid "lessons"? You and I may think they're not useful, but it's pretty clear that not everyone sees it this way. I see no "fraud" here - what you see in the youtube vids seems to be what you gets in the paid videos. Granted, I don't like his approach either; but in a twisted, miscreant sort of way, they're at least more entertaining than most TV ads I see, many of which I consider outright misleading in the extreme. But the FCC doesn't ban them because they surmise that they stay just this side of the "fraud" line.

Of course, google can do whatever they want - they own youtube, no argument there. Social engineering is alive and well, even in corporate America. But I think it's misguided and futile - he still has tons of videos out there (I just looked) and is gonna sell his paid videos one way or another. Too late to close the barn door after the horse has bolted, as they say. So I still think it would be better to leave them out there and have free flow of information about them, con and (believe it or not) pro - yes some people seem to like them. No accounting for tastes, I guess.

How about all the really trashy music out there on youtube, and elsewhere? Do (or should) "they" (whomever "they" are) decide what's "trashy enough" to remove? There's some pretty outrageous stuff out there, has been for years. Call me crazy, but I'd like to see just a hair of consistency when advocating policies like this.

No easy answers here, is all I'm saying.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 30 Dec 2016 2:04 pm

The exchange on Reso-nation.org Brooks and Greg mentioned about the dobro lessons from several years ago was pretty entertaining.

This Grove guy and his music lessons over the years remind me of sort of a Don Rickles character with hair.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 2:08 pm

No, they should not delete videos that they deem to be trashy music. That would clearly be subjective censorship of art (music). Youtube is listening to the viewers, and taking note of the many negative comments and complaints about this guy. Yes, they could opt to "let the buyer beware" but they are choosing to be proactive. Like you said, Dave, Google/Youtube is a private company and they can set the rules for their site. When I said Scott is a fraud I meant that he is not a qualified steel guitar teacher. He's barely a player. I didn't mean that there is fraud in his marketing. I meant that he's a con man, a faker.

Brooks Montgomery · Post by **Brooks Montgomery** » 30 Dec 2016 2:29 pm

If anyone is to blame, it is Dale Carnegie. His powerful positive speaking technigues and lessons paved the way for his disciples, such as Tyler Baum, Scott Grove, and in the fishing and outdoor industry, the great Hank Patterson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYdkojxrEsM

(need a tongue in cheek emoticon)

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 2:47 pm

Don't forget about the Hillbilly Weatherman. He's really knows his stuff ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTEyeQxagGA

Michael Butler · Post by **Michael Butler** » 30 Dec 2016 3:47 pm

i'm a fairly recent convert to lap steel altho i've played guitar for years. i ran across one of his videos when i searched youtube for lap steel. after a few minutes, i was laughing. then, i realized he was serious.

being still fairly new to lap steel, would i be hijacking this thread if i asked for people's recommendations as to who the good teachers are? if so, i'll delete this and start a new post, but, i thought i would try to turn it positive.
thanks,
mikeB

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 3:59 pm

Don't worry about it, Michael. There's nothing positive about this thread!

Michael Butler · Post by **Michael Butler** » 30 Dec 2016 4:04 pm

Doug Beaumier wrote:Don't worry about it, Michael. There's nothing positive about this thread!

doug: i know you are considered one of the good teachers.
thanks,

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2016 6:29 pm

Thanks Michael

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Dec 2016 5:18 am

Michael Butler wrote:being still fairly new to lap steel, would i be hijacking this thread if i asked for people's recommendations as to who the good teachers are? if so, i'll delete this and start a new post, but, i thought i would try to turn it positive.
thanks,
mikeB

A noble sentiment but no need to confuse bad teaching with good. Seldom do we as a body get to slam a con. No need to ruin the fun.

I love Tyler Baum, ight down to the melatonin ad, he knows the show is everything, and like gonzo journalism, it's all about
the effect of the event on the journalist--Tyler Baum. . He has the requisite zen for pedal steel.
This would be good teaching to Groves.

I believe it is Baum's mission to counter misinformation such as Groves, who I fear is sincere.

Kirk Francis · Post by **Kirk Francis** » 31 Dec 2016 7:59 am

[quote="Herb Steiner"]Scott Grove is an example of everything that is wrong about the Internet.

i agree with you, herb, wholeheartedly. all due respects to marshall mcluhan, people see things on a screen and by doing so somehow manage to confirm its "truth". what a jungle.

grove and his level of misinformation remind me of someone else in the news a lot of late...

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 31 Dec 2016 10:30 am

Having produced and directed many instructional videos for my day job for all kinds of subjects beyond music, I can say that teaching to the camera is hard - very hard. You have to be really prepared, know the material cold and find that existential relationship with the camera. I often tell folks it's like turning to your refrigerator to tell a heartfelt story. A lot of people who think it's easy learn to their surprise it's not. And the ratio to excellence versus crap is very lopsided as we've seen in this thread.

Even amazing musicians - George Benson, for example, cannot always coherently explain their playing on camera. For all the natural teachers on Homespun Tapes, Happy Traum had a slew more whom he had to record in baby steps - stopping them after every lick to force them to try to analyze what they do. Add in a mental disorder or plain sloppy laziness and that's a recipe for on-camera disaster. It's a service to beginners to help point them to the cream of the crop and avoid the cream of the crap.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 31 Dec 2016 1:25 pm

Well said Andy.

I too teach in the IT field and have to say. Not everyone is a great teacher. Even if they are a great player themselves but misinformation is a serious problem in my books.

Hence why I started this thread so future generations who come across him or Google his name will find the forum and good advice rather than bad and waste their time.

Bad habits are harder to break once learnt and an upside down tone bar takes the cake.

Jordan Beyer · Post by **Jordan Beyer** » 31 Dec 2016 3:13 pm

I see that a lot of you are worried that he would be bad for a new player, and I diffinetly agree. But I just have to say, honestly if you are serious about learning steel guitar and have some good sense, its not hard to see this guy is a joke, I mean heck, when I fist saw his videos as
a beginner I laughed and thought he must be half high.
(about the finger picks too, my favorite thing he said was that; along time ago somebody wore a pair of picks and now its just a cliche)

Michael James · Post by **Michael James** » 31 Dec 2016 4:40 pm

When I first was learning lap steel the first thing I did and still do is to watch a lot of YouTube videos, watch the Steel Guitar Forum and searched the web for players to watch and read about. There is endless exploration and learning to be done.
My point here is, Scott apparently didn't do any research to see what other player are doing to master their craft.
Many of the forum criticisms of Scott are harsh. But if you are selling something, you are then puting yourself out there like all products bought and sold in the market place that need to be assessed for quality. Bad products will eventually go away or no one will buy them because of their bad reputation.
I have a feeling this forum thread will put the name "Scott Grove", very high in the Google Search rankings. Scott Gove will be a name affiliated to this thread. But without saying the name Scott Grove to many times as to get Scott Grove high on the search ranking, I hope Scott Grove will have a come to Jesus moment. I really hope Scott Grove will turn a corner in his attitude and realize his short comings.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 1 Jan 2017 1:41 am

Now there's someone to admire! Did we ever find out what medication he is on?

Edit

I was of course referring to Tyler Baum but I seem to have missed a page somewhere $:\$