mission impossible:getting started

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Mar 2007 7:42 am

Tony, I knew you weren't trying to be mean,
I just found the genralization counter-productive
to good music production.

Randy, good thoughts.
I actually think in terms of painting when doing a mix.
It just happens to be a painting that changes on the fly over time.

Still there is depth of field, perspective,
color and it's variations of tint and shade,
and layout in the field of view.
What information do you put were, and how strongly.
How you paint in the textural backing to add information
that accentuates the central theme etc.

Even as you have the maiden swooning in the foreground,
and a hay loft with young rake lustily glowering middle left,
you still need to think of the sloping hill, with the meandering
stone wall, and rusticating cart partly obscured, the barnyard
supporting it all, and the cloud over the mountain in deep relief.

Each of these can be like a musical element in a mix.
And animated tone painting as it were.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 4 Mar 2007 8:06 am

David L. Donald wrote:Tony, I knew you weren't trying to be mean,
I just found the genralization counter-productive
to good music production.

Randy, good thoughts.
I actually think in terms of painting when doing a mix.
It just happens to be a painting that changes on the fly over time.

Still there is depth of field, perspective,
color and it's variations of tint and shade,
and layout in the field of view.
What information do you put were, and how strongly.
How you paint in the textural backing to add information
that accentuates the central theme etc.

Even as you have the maiden swooning in the foreground,
and a hay loft with young rake lustily glowering middle left,
you still need to think of the sloping hill, with the meandering
stone wall, and rusticating cart partly obscured, the barnyard
supporting it all, and the cloud over the mountain in deep relief.

Each of these can be like a musical element in a mix.
And animated tone painting as it were.

eloquently said.
that is my approach.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Mar 2007 9:07 am

Not strictly musical or painting,
but uses of modified perspective and shading.

In some ways I can think of mixing in the same way as using a camera.

Or a more pastoral approach.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 4 Mar 2007 9:11 am

I think I need a pill to make me quit working on a project!

Or to plagiarize on an old saying: "You can have this project when you pry my cold dead fingers from the keyboard and mouse."

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 4 Mar 2007 11:45 am

You know what they say...."playbacks are a bitch..."

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 5 Mar 2007 4:10 am

but David..not everyone can paint either !

I completely agree with what you have stated , but many times we on this and other forums assume way too many things when someone asks a question, regardless of the catagory.

Ask 50 people the same question and you will get 50 different responses.

by the way, I am the worlds WORST free hand artisitic painter..but my wife tells me I paint the House pretty good...

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 5 Mar 2007 5:59 am

Kevin Killen had an interesting answer to the question of knowing when to stop over on his guest moderator forum on Gearslutz...

"Thats a tough one because we can all over tweak.

In general, when the artist is bursting with pride , happiness , excitement and even tears. A big hug is also a good indicator or comments like " thats f.....g awesome"

To me when I can listen from the top of the song and be TOTALLY TRANSPORTED and not be distracted by anything in the music or outside, then I know."

KK

Dang fine answer...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 Mar 2007 9:22 pm

John, that's a pretty resonable criteria.

Of course thjis doesn't adress the anal-rententive client
who is NEVER satisfied and can NEVER be satisfied...

They are often the one who want's a set fee for the day,
and then wants, or NEEDS, to milk extra time,
to satisfy their intrinsic lack of satisfasction in life.

Tony, I can't paint either, but photo, video and computer design makes do for me.

The 3 photos above are Paris, Saintes and Essonne France.
Each a different subject, film and proccessing technique to reach the same end:
A nice image that speaks to ME, if no-one else.

Same as dealing with techncal issues in the studio,
What will get me from,point A to
point B; the smile on the face of the artist.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 6 Mar 2007 6:20 am

More Kevin Killen...

(Question) "I'd be interested to hear what you thought about the growing number of musicians who are attempting to engineer/produce themselves - are they trying to do a job which they couldn't possibly learn to a high standard without having gone through the hoops people like yourself have? Would their energy be better put to their musicianship/songwriting?"

(Answer) "I have witnessed musicians who are excellent engineers for their own instrument, maybe less so for other instruments . In general i don't have a problem with it as long as they understand the fundementals. In this day and age , there is enough written and visual documentation to help guide the fledgling engineers. I often counsel my friends to "do less", less eq, compression etc etc until they really get what they are trying to do. Its a lot easier to add than take away."

_________________

I have worked with several of my clients here in town and elsewhere to get their home rig set to where they can deliver quality overdubs to me. It more than often is dealing with acoustic issues in their monitoring of their work, but also geting ground issues resolved and just working to help get good sounds.

For myself, I feel pretty tech savvy, but try and never let it get in the way of what I am working on. I have found it very easy to slip back and forth between the roles of engineer, producer and player--but this is what I have done full-time since '72, so I have had a lot of practice...

With the refinement of auto-punch, it is easy for me to record myself without becoming too tied up in the engineer role. For a long time player buying and working on his or her first system, I'm sure it can be very intimidating...

Pat O'Hearn · Post by **Pat O'Hearn** » 6 Mar 2007 9:07 pm

David, nice images. Do you recall what lenses you were using on these 3 shots?, - primes or zoom?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 10 Mar 2007 12:46 am

John Macy wrote:
I often counsel my friends to "do less", less eq, compression etc etc until they really get what they are trying to do. Its a lot easier to add than take away."

For myself, I feel pretty tech savvy, but try and never let it get in the way of what I am working on.

For a long time player buying and working on his or her first system, I'm sure it can be very intimidating...

All good advice and observations.

I do also suggest after the 'do less' stage;
or using the tools/plug-ins etc. relatively invisably,
trying experimentations with the extremes of your tools also.
If you don't know ALL it can do
and how appropriate the extremes are in practice,
then you only know PART of your tool,
be it reverb, compressor limiter or EQ etc.

If you know what the edges are you can understand, sometimes much better,
the devices complexity in it's smaller variations.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 12 Mar 2007 4:59 pm

I am really enjoying this thread. it appears that we all share something in common;
if the Muse were walking down the street we all would recognize her straight off.
I must come back and respond in more depth, but for now I justed wanted to say that I have my lap steel plugged into the audio interface and I just recorded two tracks.
I know everything works; I am on the bike.
so instead of posting further I will go for my ride.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Mar 2007 12:32 am

Pat O.

Top image is with a 28-200mm on Nikon N70 at around 80-100mm
using Ilford 100 asa. Shot near Chatalet in Paris.

Second is same camera but a 100-400 zoom
Ectachrome 100SW, cold film with warm tone
kept in the fridge. At around 300mm.

Shot in Saintes Charante Maritime France,
where the ex in-laws live.

Back to the 28-200 in the southern Essonne region,
where I lived for a time.
But using 25 ASA Technical Pan super high contrast
micro-grain document film which takes special processing.
At about 32mm

I hope that helps.

Thanks for asking.

Each one is a different technique to the same end,
balance in the image or contrast to good effect.

Same as doing a good mix,
the subject determines HOW you choose your tools;

Sometimes simple, because it's natural.
sometimes complicated, to pull out extremes.
Sometimes retro, to make for a better feeling of time and place.

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 26 Mar 2007 11:01 pm

I have been a tecky all my life. I most of the time don't care about working this stuff at home. I gave up on recording songs from a one CD to another Ha or scanning too slow. I pick at my guitar. and listen to the good palyes here. I keep asking if I but a new amp will I be better, What if I buy a new guitar, will I be better. The consensus is there is really no help for me I read Als biography somewher. A very interesting life in music. I read Seymours weekly news letter avout the various players. Very interesting

Michael McGee · Post by **Michael McGee** » 27 Mar 2007 7:11 am

John Macy wrote:Kevin Killen had an interesting answer to the question of knowing when to stop over on his guest moderator forum on Gearslutz...

"Thats a tough one because we can all over tweak.

In general, when the artist is bursting with pride , happiness , excitement and even tears. A big hug is also a good indicator or comments like " thats f.....g awesome"

To me when I can listen from the top of the song and be TOTALLY TRANSPORTED and not be distracted by anything in the music or outside, then I know."

KK

Dang fine answer...

John, I think Kevin's advice is dead on. A few days ago I played a '1st draft' mix for a client, the first time he was hearing a complete mix with all overdubs. He was sitting behind me. When the song finished, I turned around to ask 'what do I change?', but I didn't speak. He was overcome with emotion and had tears running down his cheeks. He said in a broken voice 'don't change anything'. I then realized the song he had written was a true story, and the music had put the memories in the right context.

If anyone thinks this is normal for me, please know that it certainly isn't and happens to me about once every 1,000 mixes. But I think it exemplifies Kevin's point. No more tweaking - this song is done.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 27 Mar 2007 7:51 am

great story. I agree 100 percent.
for me, out of twenty paintings I make I get one killer work and if I am lucky three really good ones.
the one killer work is what keeps me in the game. those are rare. they happen when the Muse seems to move through me; it is not me so much making decisions, they are just happening.

learning this home recording stuff I now know will take time. a lot of time. I hope to get to the point where I can create.
remember...art , recording, heck , any good endeavor is 90% sweat and 10% inspiration.

is there a dictionary for the language and words used. ? that would be so helpful having a bit of the jargon down.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Mar 2007 7:53 am

Mike that's good to hear.
Hope you need not wait another 1,000 mixes!

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 27 Mar 2007 8:01 am

Randy Reeves wrote: is there a dictionary for the language and words used. ? that would be so helpful having a bit of the jargon down.

Randy, here are some titles on Amazon that you may find useful:

Home Recording Basics (Ultimate Beginner Tech Start Series)

Complete Idiot's Guide to Home Recording Illustrated

Home Recording For Musicians For Dummies

Steinar

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 27 Mar 2007 9:27 am

thanks Steinar.

I have found this site to be helpful too.

http://www.tweakheadz.com

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Apr 2007 4:35 am

Tony Prior wrote:More often than not when we are playing in the groove, the recording gear is OFF..when the recording gear is on..WE are off..

Oh, how true.

"for me it is best to let the Muse use me. I trust my instincts and training and let it fly."
"Use the force, Luke," we used to say in the studio.

Meanwhile, I found actual hardware more useful for me than software and mouse. I find a big Zoom at my right hand friendlier with other hardware (like steel). I moved up after the little Zoom and never looked back to computers for recording.

But I remain impressed with those with the facility to use the computer for non-home recording. (The guys that don't have to play at the same time, I mean.)

Many paths to same goal.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Apr 2007 5:31 am

Charlie, how true and the common thread still exists.. you still gotta play something worthy of recording !

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 2 Apr 2007 7:47 am

how about another analogy...
when you first met a girl and her parents one was on the best behavior...all please and thank you, yes sir and maam.
then after a month of dinners and dates it becomes more casual and natural...yet the respect remains.

beginning recording at home I feel all stiff and formal and plugging in to record is like meeting the dad. I lo0ok forward to 'letting it fly'.

now, let's talk about latency...I discovered that this weekend.
I need to learn now about buffers.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Apr 2007 7:53 am

Tony Prior wrote:Charlie, how true and the common thread still exists.. you still gotta play something worthy of recording !

Yep so true.

And I find the recordings of crap,
go a long way to making players woodshed till
the HAVE something worth recording.

Nothing like hearing how bad you are,
to kick you in the butt!

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mission impossible:getting started

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